Cresc/Decr in Finale

I can't get Cresc/Decr playback thru VD2 using Finale 2004 on the Mac. All other articulations and dynamics work fine. The cresc/decr. also play correctly when using Finale's built in sounds, but I get nothing from VD2.
[quote=";mcp";]Just out of curiosity, were the samples performed at different dynamics? If so, I can see how using key velocity would make a difference.[/quote]

Absolutely! That's a big reason you can achieve good realism with VDL2. Playing notes as softer velocities will call up recordings (samples) that were performed at lower heights. So when you're hearing dynamic contrast, it's not just because things are louder or softer versions of one sample. They're actually recordings of soft hits, medium hits, loud hits, and many variations in between.

For this reason, controlling dynamics with velocity is definitely the best approach with this library.
Just out of curiosity, were the samples performed at different dynamics? If so, I can see how using key velocity would make a difference.
[quote=";mcp";]Human playback won't playback the diddles correctly, unless they've fixed that also. Like I said, I can switch the text expressions to control volume and not velocity. I'll give that a try tonight and see what happens.[/quote]

OK - I think they may have diddles with human playback in 2005. I'm not completely sure. From my limited tinkering with Finale 2005, the human playback stuff seemed to work fairly well. Might be a good thing to check with the folks at [url=http://www.finalemusic.com/forum/]Finale[/url].
Human playback won't playback the diddles correctly, unless they've fixed that also. Like I said, I can switch the text expressions to control volume and not velocity. I'll give that a try tonight and see what happens.
You've probably already come to this conclusion, but it's not adviseable to use BOTH methods (velocity control and volume control) simultaneously. It doesn't sound like that's what you were doing, but i figured it's worth mentioning.

Since dynamic expressions (mp, mf, ff, etc) affect [b]velocity[/b] in Finale, it's actually a good thing that volume knobs are restored following the hairpin. If it didn't do that, you might have a hairpin decresc that takes the volume knob down to say 40, then when Finale sees the dynamic marking at the end of the hairpin (lets say it's ";p";), not only would you have low velocities being triggered (as a result of the ";p"; dynamic marking), but it would be compounded by the low [b]volume[/b] setting as well.

One possible bit of good news is that Finale 2005 seems to allow you to configure Human Playback to play cresc/decres either automaticallly, velocity only, or volume only. By setting to ";velocity only"; my guess is that it would handle hairpins more like Sibelius in that they're all controlled via velocity. For drum stuff, this is most often my preference. The volume control is more beneficial for long sustained notes (i.e. brass/woodwinds).

I realize you're using Finale 2004, and maybe there's a way to tweak Human Playback there in a similar fashion. I'm not sure.
Well, I tried both suggestions, and they both[i] kinda[/i] work...

Using David's suggestion works as promised, but it doesn't seem practical for two reasons. One is that it seems that you can't do this with more than one staff at a time. The other is the fact that TG Tools uses layer 4 to store the diddled notes.

Here's an example of the problem that creates: Say I want to do a full measure crescendo. So on layer 1, I set the velocity from 50 to 100. Simple enough. But then on layer 4, I have a diddle on the 'e' of 3 and a diddle on count 4. I select those notes and then have to determine what corresponding velocity to assign them so they align with the velocity changes in layer 1.

Regardless, it's nice to know how to use the midi tool. Thanks, david.

Using Jim's suggestion, VD responds by adjusting the volume knob of the instrument, which makes sense. So, both cres/decrs worked. But, here's the problem - immediatley following a crescendo, it sets the volume back to 64. Same with decrescendos - it will turn the knob down and then instantly jump back to 64.

As I was writing this, I just realized that text expressions can be set to control midi volume. I'll give that a try and let you all know how it works.
[quote=";Jim Casella";]OK - thanks for confirming David.

Try this - open the OPTIONS window of VDL2, and click the button that says:
";USE STD CC#7/CC#1O VOLUME & PAN";. Close window, then relaunch VDL2.

Once you've done this, if Finale is sending controller #7 midi messages (volume) to VDL2, it should respond accordingly.

Let us know if that seems to do the trick for you.[/quote]

I'll give it a shot tonight. Thanks.
OK - thanks for confirming David.

Try this - open the OPTIONS window of VDL2, and click the button that says:
";USE STD CC#7/CC#1O VOLUME & PAN";. Close window, then relaunch VDL2.

Once you've done this, if Finale is sending controller #7 midi messages (volume) to VDL2, it should respond accordingly.

Let us know if that seems to do the trick for you.
In talking about Finale's text expressions (fff, ff, f, mf, mp, p, etc.), those are set up with a playback setting that sets key velocity different values.

To see these, click on ";Edit"; when in the Expression Selection window. Under the Playback tab, you will see the key velocity assignment.

TGTools' Smart Playback modifies the MIDI volume controller data. Remember that the default values for Smart Playback include setting the initial volume to 64.

- David
David - excellent post. Bravo!

MCP - midi programs can simulate dynamics in different ways. There's ";volume"; control, and there's ";velocity"; control. These two controls are very different. Some of your troubles may have to do with how Finale (or TG Tools) sends midi messages for hairpins. Accents are created with velocity changes which are very natural with VDL2. David's MIDI Tutorial above is a way to adjust velocity to simulate crescendos, so give that a try. I'm not sure how Finale normally handles hairpins...it may use something other than velocity control. Hairpins work fine in Sibelius.
Thanks for the reply, I'll give it a try. Although, I'm still confused, because Finale does pass the info for accents and dynamic markings (p, ff, etc) automatically. So, I'm assuming that it doesn't send the hairpins. I just thought that was strange since it will playback hairpins without human playback on, as long as I'm using Finale's built in sounds.

Also, (I just re-read your message), I am using the TG Tools smart playback. Shouldn't this handle it for me. Like I said, it works perfectly for me as long as I'm not using VD2.
Although this is not a Finale support forum, I'll give some information on doing dynamics in Finale. There are two ways (well, actually three) that I would recommend to create crescendi with playback.

One way is the easiest, and yet the one with the least amount of control. That is to use Finale's Human Playback feature. If you don't want all of the ";extra stuff"; that goes along with most of the human playback styles, select the custom style. Once selected, deactivate everything except for ";Interpret: Hairpins and Dynamics";.

If you want a little more control over the dynamic changes in your playback, try the following method. It is really easy to do, but takes a couple of steps more than just inserting a graphic crescendo (hairpin).

1. Select the Midi Tool.

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/midi-tool1.jpg[/img]

2. Select the measures you want to crescendo / decrescendo.

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/select-measures.jpg[/img]

3. Double-click the measures to reveal the MIDI Tool window. Be sure that the top icon is selected (looks like an arrow in a box) which represents the key velocity.

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/midi-window.jpg[/img]

4. Select the notes by dragging across the area above the notes (shown highlighted in green below).

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/select-notes.jpg[/img]

5. From the MIDI Tool menu, select ";Scale...";.

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/menu-select-scale.jpg[/img]

6. Enter the starting velocity and ending velocity for the selected notes (low to high for crescendo, high to low for decrescendo) and click ";OK";.

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/scale-window.jpg[/img]

7. The result is a smooth key velocity gradient in the MIDI Tool window.

[img]http://enete.org/drumstuff/tapspace/result-midi-window.jpg[/img]

The process takes just a few seconds after putting in your graphic crescendo (smart shape).

Other methods include the use of smart shapes, text expressions with playback parameters, and TGTools' Smart Playback.

The user's manual has all of the information you need. I just thought I'd throw out some info. to put it in an easier to digest form.

- David
Have you tried applying the TG Tools Smart Playback plug-in? I remember this used to be necessary to get slash rolls to play back as diddles, but recall there being some hairpin control as well.

Hairpins on successive midi attacks will likely playback best if they're activating velocity increases on each attack (i.e. value 40-110, would sound like a dramatic crescendo over the course of a bar).

When Finale plays hairpins with its normal sounds, I'm not sure if it's doing this via controller 7 (midi volume), or with simple velocity scaling. If anyone has more information on this, it would be helpful.

thanks.
I'm not sure I'm following you're question, but any instrument. I'm talking about hairpin crescendos added as an expression below any staff.
Anyone know Finale's midi method for cresc/de's?

MCP, what instrument is a good example?
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