Open Rolls (32nds) - RH Dominance (Pulse)

Finale 2007
Windows XP
Pentium 4 HT
1.2 GB RAM

I'm finding that open rolls in 4/4 (32nd notes) sound very uneven . . . There's a heavier eighth-note pulse on the right hand.

In Finale, the midi velocity settings are the same for each hand (-63) . . . but the RH comes across as heavier . . . thus making longer open rolls sound uneven.

I'm using the Smart Playback plug-in (overriding Human Playback).

I tried to experiment with editing the midi velocities in Finale . . . but for some reason, with negative (-) numbers, they return a value of zero . . . when you go back and check them after editing.

Any suggestions to make the rolls sound more smooth?

M.
Okay . . . It sounds like I need input from people who are running VDL:2 as a VST plug-in Finale 2007.

I've updated the Finale Library . . . and I've Installed the DFD extension.

I've tried various combinations of HP Playback vs. Smart Playback . . . and I've tweaked the tempo settings . . . but it all sounds the same. RH dominance prevails on long open rolls (32nds) . . . and, as we've seen, on the triplet rolls as well (uneven tempo).

In Smart Playback . . . the diddle notes on Layer 1 are coming back as level -63 . . .while the hidden diddle-completing notes on Layer 4 are coming at a level of 64 in the midi tool. All tweaks and changes I've tried in both layers have had no positive effect on the playback.

Ultimately . . . I don't care about the sounds. What really matters is the notes I deliver on paper. However, it would really be an asset to provide a realistic audio file to accompany the notes.

M.

Jim,

Yeah, I'm running it as a VST plug-in.

I'll try altering the velocity values this evening.

M.
Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but I can't remember... Are you running VDL in standalone mode, or as a plugin in finale? Some of what those recordings sound like is some clunky latency (wobbly rhythms). I can't remember if you're able to adjust latency for hosted VST's within Finale, but I'd be curious if the same result occurs if routing midi out to a standalone VDL (via Maple or Midi Yoke), where you may have more control over your soundcard.

Another suggestion just for kicks...try setting the velocity of those nasty rolls to 66 (positive 66, not negative) and see if that helps any.
Coach,

Ambience Reverb is not checked. The slight Reverb I'm using is from VDL:2

I just tried all of your suggestions to the letter, for clearing midi data�� . . . and it made the playback even worse. Especially the RH dominance. Sounded terrible.

To me, even if the tempo is wobbly, there shouldn't be any heavy right-hand dominance. So it seems I have two issues.

I'm not sure how to address the tempo thing . . . You tell it to play 200 bpm . . . I figure we're paying enough money for the software to play 200 bpm. Ha!

It may be that my system needs a full 2 GB of RAM to make the stuff sound right.

Keep the suggestions coming . . .

M.
Are you using Ambience Reverb?�� Does unchecking (turning it off) help with some of the other playback artifacts - not necesarrily the RH heavy issue but the uneven playback?

Have you tried saving these documents and clearing MIDI Data to see what happens without any of the Continuous Data and Tempo data in the files?

[b]CLEARING MIDI DATA[/b]
1.) Mass Edit Tool -->control-A (to select all)
2.) Mass Edit Menu -->Clear Items...
3.) Click ";Uncheck All";

4.) once everything is unchecked please check the following items:
-Performance Data
-Tempo Changes
-Continuous Data

5.) Click OK
Frankly, they're both bad.  That tempo is very, very wobbly.  I don't think it's fair to consider hand dominance until those tempos are straightened out.  You have Finale modifying the precise playback tempo.  Get that sorted, and redo these.
Okay . . . here are a couple of examples:

These are some simple exercises I'm writing . . . so I'm not worried about copyright. Plus, the links won't be up for long.

(1) [b]TRIPLET ROLLS[/b] ��� 200 bpm (mp3)
This one's in three sections, with each section repeated once.

(2) [b]DIDDLES[/b] ��� 32nds / 120 bpm (mp3)
This one's in two sections, with each section repeated once. Put your focus on the [b]second section[/b] . . . It's the second measure (full roll) and last measure (full roll) of this section where I'm really hearing the RH has heavy-handed.

Does that not stand out to everyone else, as well?

It could be that I'm making too much of it . . . and it might just be a flaw in Finale's playback. I just want to see if others are getting this, and to receive some feedback on any tweaks I might try.

All settings are the same for both examples . . .

Thanks muchly,

M.

Coach,

The Base Key Velocity in the Playback settings is 64.

I'm getting the -63 reading with the Midi Tool . . . but only for the notes with diddles on them (hence the open roll question).

And bear in mind, I'm using the Smart Playback method, with Human Playback turned off.

Stay tuned for a couple of audio examples . . .

M.

Mark,
If you can find a way of posting the file this may be a good thing so that some of us can look at it.  You may also want to send Technical Support for Finale a support case 
[url]http://support.makemusic.com[/url]

They may need to look at whay you are getting ";-63"; as the Base Key Velocity.  Is this the number you are seeing in the Playback controls or within the MIDI Tool?  When the Base Key Velocity is changed to a negative number in the Playback Controls, it changes that to 0 becasue you can only use positive numbers.
[quote author=Mark A. Moore link=topic=1576.msg7491#msg7491 date=1172087122]
[quote author=drumcat link=topic=1576.msg7485#msg7485 date=1172045022]
Can you either post or email me/us an audio clip demonstrating it?  I'd love to hear what this is...
[/quote]

Jim,

What's the board policy on posting links to examples of our material, for critique? . . . Not for compositional critique, but for tips on tweaking settings in Finale and VDL:2 to get a smooth sound. I want my stuff to sound as real as possible. And I'm curious whether others are hearing a similar right-hand pulse in their 32nds.

For my purposes, I would post a link for a short time . . . get some feedback . . . and then take the link down.

Is this allowed here?

M.
[/quote]

Mark - no worries at all. Post away. I think sharing this kind of information can be helpful to everyone, so go for it! If it is something copyrighted that you're arranging, please keep the snippet to 30 seconds or less.

thanks!
[quote author=Jim Casella link=topic=1576.msg7488#msg7488 date=1172054433]
[quote author=Mark A. Moore link=topic=1576.msg7483#msg7483 date=1172044267]
[quote author=Jim Casella link=topic=1576.msg7462#msg7462 date=1171999881]
What do you mean by using negative velocity values? You should�� be using a value setting between 1 and 127.
[/quote]

Jim,

When I check my velocity values using the Midi Tool in Finale 2007 . . . the default velocity reading is -63, for both RH and LH hits . . . for both snares and tenors.

M.

[/quote]

Hmm. Is this normal for Finale? Is there a way for you to change -63 (which still seems strange) to plain old 63? What happens if you change the dynamic marking from (say) mf to mp. Are you seeing velocities affected? Most of my questions are merely a matter of trying to get a better idea of what Finale's doing, and why there's even negative velocity values at all.
[/quote]

Not sure if it's normal . . . but I'll experiment with the numbers. All I know is that when I tried to edit them as negative (-) numbers. . . say from -63 to -60 . . .�� the value was ";0"; when I went opened the midi tool again to check it.

M.
[quote author=drumcat link=topic=1576.msg7485#msg7485 date=1172045022]
Can you either post or email me/us an audio clip demonstrating it?�� I'd love to hear what this is...
[/quote]

Jim,

What's the board policy on posting links to examples of our material, for critique? . . . Not for compositional critique, but for tips on tweaking settings in Finale and VDL:2 to get a smooth sound. I want my stuff to sound as real as possible. And I'm curious whether others are hearing a similar right-hand pulse in their 32nds.

For my purposes, I would post a link for a short time . . . get some feedback . . . and then take the link down.

Is this allowed here?

M.
[quote author=Mark A. Moore link=topic=1576.msg7483#msg7483 date=1172044267]
[quote author=Jim Casella link=topic=1576.msg7462#msg7462 date=1171999881]
What do you mean by using negative velocity values? You should  be using a value setting between 1 and 127.
[/quote]

Jim,

When I check my velocity values using the Midi Tool in Finale 2007 . . . the default velocity reading is -63, for both RH and LH hits . . . for both snares and tenors.

M.

[/quote]

Hmm. Is this normal for Finale? Is there a way for you to change -63 (which still seems strange) to plain old 63? What happens if you change the dynamic marking from (say) mf to mp. Are you seeing velocities affected? Most of my questions are merely a matter of trying to get a better idea of what Finale's doing, and why there's even negative velocity values at all.
Can you either post or email me/us an audio clip demonstrating it?  I'd love to hear what this is...
[quote author=drumcat link=topic=1576.msg7473#msg7473 date=1172036569]
Let's be sure we're talking about the same things here...

#1 - RH vs LH in sampling can be more drastic, and should be to be noticeable.
#2 - A lot of the differences aren't so much amplitude (volume), but pitch.�� See if that's what is bugging...
#3 - Live playback can affect velocity.�� Make sure that you are indeed getting the same velocity.�� Often, programs like Finale and Sibelius alter velocity by as many as +/- 6 or 7 in order to sound ";real";.�� That may work for a clarinet, which gets maybe 20% louder from mf to ff.�� Percussion samples are much more sensitive to smaller changes.

Mark, are your midi settings any different with your triplet passages?

[/quote]

Drumcat,

No, the default midi velocities are the same in the triplet passages . . . ";-63.";

I'm doing triplet roll exercises at 200 beats per minute . . . and diddle exercises in 4/4 at 120 bpm.

M.



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