I've been out of the comp/arranging world for a while and in my absence the tools have gotten WAY better.  Racks of equipment have been replaced by software and Virtual Drumline 2.5 looks to be a major player.  I’m really excited about the product.  Cudo’s to everyone who helped with its development.

I'm checking out available notation tools and I’m hoping to stand on the shoulders of some of you more experienced folks because I’m about to pull out my hair (something I really can’t afford to do!).  After playing with Sibelius 5 (btw, I'm a Finale user from years ago) I'm really impressed with its design and ease of use excepting one major area… playback. 

Trying to use specific sounds from a VST and changing them throughout an arrangement doesn't seem trivial (or even possible?).  I’ve waded through the soundset ID’s and Instrument changes and editing of staff types, etc.  It’s a ton of work just to get one specific sound and when I do, I feel like I’ve won the lottery.  For example, writing muti-percussion parts is a nightmare as far as playback goes.  Does anyone else have this problem or am I just too far down on the learning curve?  I know Sibelius 5 is on the “Bleeding Edge” right now but I’m a little nervous about its use with Virtual Drumline.  Is Finale 07/08 easier in this regard?  So far, Sibelius/Virtual Drumline 2.5 seems to be a combo with great potential but I just can’t easily select the sounds for playback.

All advice is welcome… 

I haven't touched Sibelius since maybe version 2, and have been using Finale since.  Sibelius is a fine program, and I would say the user split on this forum between Finale and Sibelius is probably about 50/50.

I'm sure you're skipping a program/patch change feature in Sibelius.  One of the Sibelius nerds on here can better answer that.

What might help is to detail what version of Sibelius you're running, which VST you're using, and what type of computer you're on.

[quote author=C.C. link=topic=1907.msg9496#msg9496 date=1185904485]Trying to use specific sounds from a VST and changing them throughout an arrangement doesn't seem trivial (or even possible?).  I�۪ve waded through the soundset ID�۪s and Instrument changes and editing of staff types, etc.  It�۪s a ton of work just to get one specific sound and when I do, I feel like I�۪ve won the lottery.  For example, writing muti-percussion parts is a nightmare as far as playback goes.  Does anyone else have this problem or am I just too far down on the learning curve?  I know Sibelius 5 is on the ���Bleeding Edge�۝ right now but I�۪m a little nervous about its use with Virtual Drumline.  Is Finale 07/08 easier in this regard?  So far, Sibelius/Virtual Drumline 2.5 seems to be a combo with great potential but I just can�۪t easily select the sounds for playback.
[/quote]

I personally believe this is a serious design flaw of Sibelius 5. In Sibelius 4 you could easily manually assign channel and program numbers per staff or change them mid staff if neccessary. It seems in an attempt to make it more accessible to laymen they have worked to automate the entire process, where Sibelius will automatically detect what instrument you want, load, and playback an appropriate sound. That's fine and dandy until, as you have found out, you don't want to use the sounds Sibelius does, or a custom set of sounds.

So they have designed these Sounds Sets. Basically someone needs to make a sound set for every synth/vst you have, or you have to make one yourself. And of course Sibelius hasn't released it's Sound Set Editor to the public yet (I'm not bitter or anything ;)) so making them is no trivial task. Now if you want to create a custom staff to use only certain percussion instruments, then you have to have the appropriate sound sets and sound ids, wade through immense heirarchy trees of sounds, and manually assign each sound to the proper note and place in a custom staff. Fun, fun. Hopefully in a future update Sibelius will pass some of the control back to the user.

There is an updated VDL 2.5 sound set at http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/resources/soundsets.html and hopefully the VDL 2.5 Template will be around soon, it will make things a bit easier, but until then you'll have to continue to search and manually set all the sound id's yourself.

Good luck!

[quote author=Josh Champagne link=topic=1907.msg9500#msg9500 date=1185912280]
In Sibelius 4 you could easily manually assign channel and program numbers per staff or change them mid staff if neccessary.
[/quote]

So I either have to have faith that Sibelius will ";fix"; v5 the way ";we"; want, use Finale 2008 or try to buy a copy of Sibelius 4.  I'm reaching for my magic eight ball now! It always knows what to do.

Can any Finale users out there comment on its functionality with Virtual Drumline 2.5?

Finale 2007 and 2008 both use Kontakt Player 2 in which you will access VDL 2.5 sounds directly. You can host this directly in Finale as a VST (windows) or AU (Mac). It allows you to make all the necessary settings yourself and is functioning well.

Sibelius 5's redesigned playback system is taking some of those ";manual"; settings and making them more automated, but for folks that like the direct access to tinker, it may feel like some initial growing pains. Still, I like to think this will eventually become a revolutionary and time-saving way to access sounds and share scores with other Sibelius/VDL users. Due to its dramatic differences, it will take some time to get certain kinks worked out, but I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.

The Sibelius 5 VDL templates are still a ways off, and I apologize for the extra limbo time here. To call this time of year 'hectic' would be an understatement when combining the VDL 2.5 release, Sibelius 5 release, the throws of drum corps season, and the recent move of Tapspace world headquarters. I'm not trying to make excuses, and realize people have work to accomplish, so we're working hard to get there. Hopefully just a few more weeks. Your patience and support are really keeping us from going crazy! :)

If you haven't already, I'd recommend getting in touch with the good folks at Sibelius as well via their chat page. I think as long as you're thoughtful with your concerns, you'll find them very open to hear any grievances you may have, and may have some more suggestions to offer. To their credit, they are aware of how this system changes workflow, particularly for folks working with unpitched percussion (all of us...).
http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?groupid=3

Jim... thanks for taking the time to reply.  If you can sit still for more than 30 seconds without falling asleep you're holding up better than I ever did.

I hope your thoughts about Sibelius 5 turns out to be true.  I agree that it's gonna take some time to work it all out (as in 1 or 2 updates).  I hate to take a wait and see attitude but that might be what is called for here.  I'm gonna get a demo of Finale 2008 and see what I can see.  Either way I'm looking forward to using VDL 2.5.  Thanks for the info!

Personally I've held off on Sibelius 5 until some of the kinks are worked out.  I'm a software developer/usabillity analyst by trade, so I was initially drawn to Sibelius 3 just because they really were able to nail the user interface.  All of those things that I never understood why they had to be so cumbersome in Finale were so intuitive in Sibelius, and I've been a content Sibelius pundit since.

After the initial wash of people jumping to the Sibelius ship Finale has really picked up the slack.  Competition breeds innovation, and I think Finale has matured into a product worth embracing.  The experience of using Sibelius is still much more enjoyable for me, but I think you'd be well-pleased with either programs now a days.

Ill preface this post by saying Ive been a Finale guy since 3.1.

I have recently started to use Sib because the rest of the staff I currently work with uses it.

Sib is easier to use, but the things that it does automatically to make your life easier sometimes get in the way of what you really want to do. Granted, to do these things in Finale it involves more steps and menus, but Im happier with the end result. And, until v5, the lack of VST hosting was a bummer. That little nav-scroll  window in Sib drives me completely insane.

That being said, they will both get you where you need to go.

As an aside, I know Sib is kind of taking over our world as the standard, but what about the rest of the music world such as publishers, composers, studios etc? Anybody know?

EE

[quote author=Tito link=topic=1907.msg9535#msg9535 date=1186069818]As an aside, I know Sib is kind of taking over our world as the standard, but what about the rest of the music world such as publishers, composers, studios etc? Anybody know?

EE
[/quote]

There are plenty of professional composers that use Sibelius and Finale too. It's easy for them to write seeing a score vs. a piano roll of a sequencer. For sample based composing Cubase is becoming a big standard. For studio quality recording Pro Tools seems to be the top choice, and for media based production like TV and games Nuendo is where it's at. Of course everyone has their preferences though. I have no idea what professional publishers use, I would guess in house software, though plenty of smaller companies use Sibelius and get great results.

Many publishers will actually use both, but right now alot use Finale and I understand it to be what is most commonly used. ��Both do certian things in their own way and both have issues that need addressing. ��I personally have both so that I can deal with whichever one I need to for a certain client that I am arranging for. ��I think Programming Program Changes in Sibelius is faster, but Finale can be more detailed. ��It's all in what you like.

I just returned from Hal Leonard who is just beginning to distribute VDL. For those who don't know, they're they largest music publisher in the world. I actually asked this question while I was there. They use a mix of both Sibelius and Finale. Certain divisions lean heavier one way (i.e., instrumental, pop, choral, etc), but both notation programs are used extensively there.

[quote author=Tito link=topic=1907.msg9535#msg9535 date=1186069818]
As an aside, I know Sib is kind of taking over our world as the standard, but what about the rest of the music world such as publishers, composers, studios etc? Anybody know?

EE
[/quote]

In a traditional recording studio setting, notation software is not found as much.  In post-production houses and studios that are geared more for orchestral recording you're more likely to find Sibelius/Finale on the computer.  That might be changing very soon due to Avid/Digidesign acquiring Sibelius.  Future integration with Pro Tools is on the horizon, and the current version of Pro Tools has an Export to Sibelius feature.

I think a lot of people are starting to realize notation software is useful for people other than strict film and band composers.