Hey all,

An original indoor show I'm writing for the upcoming season has really made me revisit my workflow, particularly because it requires a high amount of sampled playback.

I have found that although I'm very efficient at writing pit parts in Sibelius/VDL2.5, when I add sampled playback or recorded material everything grinds to a halt.  For example, because I don't own any modern audio solutions other than Kontakt Player 2.0 I usually end up recording an mp3 of the mallet track with wiretap pro, then dragging that into garage band, and then playing around with what instruments/samples they have available to see if I can get an idea of what the finished product would be like.

This just takes way too long, and minor changes to the notated parts really make things unproductive by having to rip another mp3, insert back in, line it up again, etc. 

I was wondering of the Mac-specific audio solutions out there (Logic, Kontakt, etc.) what would be my best bet for trying to centralize everything?  If there's no cure-all solution what do some of you guys that rely on samples heavily do when composing?  All the back and forth and spending hours of wasted time a session is really starting to get to me.

Thanks!

[quote author=Justin Belcher link=topic=2032.msg10280#msg10280 date=1191952501]
Hey all,
I was wondering of the Mac-specific audio solutions out there (Logic, Kontakt, etc.) what would be my best bet for trying to centralize everything?  If there's no cure-all solution what do some of you guys that rely on samples heavily do when composing?  All the back and forth and spending hours of wasted time a session is really starting to get to me.
Thanks!
[/quote]

I'm planning on trying Cubase when I get my duckets saved up -- be sure to crossgrade.  I can ENTIRELY feel for ya, and I am tired of the lack of notation integration.  Finale/Sibelius seem to want to be all-in-one without really being a midi solution.  You're in a better spot with Mac because you can choose between Logic and Cubase.  My limited experience with these are that the notation isn't quite as intuitive, but they are adequate...  and adequate even with a little jiggering around is still better than the headache workflow we've dealt with for many years.

It does seem like if you have any audio that needs to go into a project, you're totally stuck.  It's too bad the notation-based programs don't understand this...  anyhow, I think you have to choose between Cubase (http://www.steinberg.net/41_1.html) and Logic.  You may even just need something like Cubase Studio 4, and that's only ~$199 on crossgrade.

If any notation software would implement ReWire, all of this garbage wouldn't be necessary, but the leading two...  won't happen.  Let us know which you go with. 

I talked with Allen Joanis for quite a bit, and I believe he has me sold on Logic.  The learning curve is going to be steep, but the end result is definitely going to be worth it I believe.  Honestly anything I could imagine doing is possible in Logic, and there are so many opportunities for taking control of the sound I'm putting out and really controlling crescendos, articulations, and the like.

The ability to drag in quicktime videos or audio samples to compose directly to is a plus, and it's really easy to keep separate staves for print and playback and knock down the velocities of the print stuff if you want more control over the playback (Allen also has a pretty ingenious system of using the music font directly for articulations and dynamics, so that he can control all of the playback through the interface instead of having it interpret the crescendos and accels, etc.).

A big part of it that is taking me some getting used to is with Finale/Sibelius you do the notation first, and then you get the playback.  In Logic the paradigm is a lot closer-related to ";make the sound you want, and the notation comes for free.";  The notation in Logic isn't quite up to Sibelius/Finale standards yet, even in 8, but it still produces great-looking scores with arbitrary groupings of staves (similar to Sibelius 4's dynamic parts).

It'll take some work, but with this I can completely centralize my entire workflow.  I could even start with the drill in Pyware, export a quicktime movie, stick that into Logic, and write directly to it layering in samples, recorded narration, and sounds from external sources all in one place.  Plus the sound I'm exporting will be great from the start without needing any post-processing, and if I need to make changes everything is situated.

It's a huge paradigm shift, and a daunting piece of software to tackle, but in the end I think Logic's going to really be the best end-to-end solution for my workflow woes.  Sibelius is still ideal for quick-and-dirty small projects, but when you really need to hear everything real-time and not waste time with a complicated workflow I think it's worth it to step up the process.

Last night I was able to write about 30 seconds of front ensemble parts with fired samples from kontakt in the synths, special effects audio tracks, and embedded VDL2.5 sounds.

The score came out looking really nice, and the degree I had control over the playback velocities, creating parabolic crescendos, and notating independent rolls while being able to nail down exactly the metric I wanted it to sound like in another stave was eye-opening.�� Plus being able to save it, close the project, and open it again with all of my instanced kontakt players, loaded samples, audio tracks, and other libraries being loaded back in for me is a great time-saver.

In short I think it's been a good investment.�� From start to finish Logic can handle everything I need, from notation, to playback, to printing scores, to processing final cuts of the audio.�� Cool stuff.

So Justin, you're using Logic as your sole basis of composition?  Sampling, notating and mixing?  How does the notation work with percussion and the VDL2.5 battery sounds?  I'm very interested in upgrading my writing implements in the next year, especially as I get into wind arranging and am curious how this works out for you.

[quote author=Cadet311 link=topic=2032.msg10300#msg10300 date=1192113544]
So Justin, you're using Logic as your sole basis of composition?�� Sampling, notating and mixing?�� How does the notation work with percussion and the VDL2.5 battery sounds?�� I'm very interested in upgrading my writing implements in the next year, especially as I get into wind arranging and am curious how this works out for you.
[/quote]

Yup, I'm totally in Logic now.�� Notation all the way to mixing.�� I'll do a short explanation of how VDL2.5 integration works, but I think I'm gonna make a full writeup in the help section after I've had more time to play around about the entire process.

In Logic you can think of your instrument types as audio objects.�� You can load plugins like kontakt player 2 into them, and you can attach multiple tracks (analogous to staffs) to each object.�� So let's describe the setup for auxillary percussion parts:�� I have one audio object called Basic Rack that I have loaded an instance of KP2 into.�� I have 4 auxillary parts (Percussion 1-4) and each part has its own set of 16 midi channels.�� I make connections for all 4 parts to plug into the same audio object, and now I can drop in VDL2.5 sounds into KP just like I normally do (by loading KP2 as a plugin, you pretty much make VDL live inside of Logic--you see exactly what you'd see if it were standalone, but as a popup window in Logic).�� I don't use banks, but rather drop in individual instruments and assign them MIDI channels.

Now in notation there's two options:�� enter notes directly through a familiar notation interface, or enter notes in the piano roll.�� For percussion I have a staff style set up that when you enter notes in piano roll or through the midi keyboard they don't show up in the score--only the piano roll.�� Likewise, notes you enter into the score do not playback. This is really powerful because you make a separation between what you see and what you hear.�� You can enter in a cymbal roll, and drag it around to make it peak at the exact spot you want it (even if it's nowhere close to the notation you use), and notate it separately in the staff for the player (which won't play back).�� The most awesome thing about Logic in this context is that you can assign MIDI channels [b]PER NOTE[/b].�� No more program changes or banks needed.�� You can say this note is a cymbal crash from MIDI channel 1, this note is an earth plate from channel 4, this note is a marimba hit on channel 3--all in the same measure.�� The sky's the limit, and because there's a separation between notation and playback you get to control how your auxiliary percussion parts look (which I have to say my aux. parts using VDL templates were never as concise/elegant as they should have been, but that was a compromise I made for the productivity gains).

Now other instruments aren't set up this way in my workflow; the notation and the piano roll both display and playback, but the cool thing is that Logic lets you create your own MIDI maps in audio objects.�� So I have the VDL notes mapped to display however I want it.�� It's a very intuitive interface--just a table of midi notes where you can change noteheads, label the sound, and designate its position on the staff.�� This is also great because you can completely customize your own notation style this way without having to brave the bowels of Sibelius/Finale's mapping structure--if you want bass 6 on F that's all you, if you want rimshots as circled notes same deal. The other cool thing is if you label notes in the MIDI map, the label shows up in the piano roll window.�� So by naming ";RH Ping Shot"; in the mapping interface, that shows up on the note in the piano roll--so you don't ever have to pull out the VDL manual to remember what note does what.

So that's notation in a nutshell.�� It can do most things that Sibelius/Finale can (as far as articulations and ornamentation goes), and the approach Allen showed me of using text objects for articulations/dynamics is great because they don't affect playback, and you can go into the piano roll and fine-tune volume and velocities yourself.  It's so nice to write a cresendo, and then go into the piano roll and draw a curved line for its volume--so much more musical and satisfying to listen to.

Honestly it's a big. ok. HUGE transition.�� And without someone to guide you along the way it'll really be frustrating, but on the other side it's composition nirvana for me.�� I think just as an approach to notation/playback it's worth the money, but when you figure in how easy it is to drop in recorded tracks and effects, and how everything gets saved and loaded back in for you when you close the file, it's too good to be true.��

Also worth noting that all of this coolness is a direct result of Allen.�� He's used Logic for notation for years, and has refined these methods, templates, and approaches to perfection.�� I'm only able to use this software like this because he was nice enough to share his expertise and setup with me.��

Thanks a bunch for the explanation, it really sheds some light on the benefits/potential drawbacks for this method.�� I'm looking forward to the forthcoming write-up and hopefully some of the files/templates that you mentioned.�� I just got Logic Express yesterday (couldn't afford the big guy and don't have the HD capacity anyway) and am looking forward to getting it going in this context.��

A new day is beginning. . .

That's an awesome writeup.  I'm looking forward to Cubase provided their 4.1 is at least decent.  I expect that I'll see a lot of the same conditions.  It's really good to know that Logic is capable of all of that, especially knowing that IMO Sibelius and Finale have both drastically dropped the ball.  Again, IMO, all any sequencer has to do is add decent notation, whereas a notation program has to offer all sorts of digital audio.  Wishing the audio stuff wasn't that important is a serious flaw in their collective thinking.

Bravo on the jump.

Will this work with Logic Express or just Logic Pro?

In release 7 no, Express was missing too many features.  Allen said he's had friends with Express that he tried to help get setup and eventually there was too much missing to be successful with it.

I had heard that in release 8 they really brought Express more in line with Pro as far as features go, so it now may be possible to have your cake for $199, but honestly I don't know.  They're the same software save these missing features in Express:

- Support for high-end control surfaces (Euphonix, SmartAV)
- DAE/TDM support
- DAP (distributed audio processing with Logic Node)
- Surround
- EVP88
- EVB3
- EVD6
- Sculpture
- Space Designer
- Delay Designer
- Linear Phase EQ
- Match EQ
- Multipr

None of which I can say I've used directly, but they may very well be essential to this workflow and I'm unaware of it.  If you know someone with express 8 it might be worth trying out first, but honestly Studio was worth the money for me.  It includes ALL of the Jam packs (in addition to gigs and gigs of samples, and a few other really handy programs) which pays for the cost of the bundle itself (5 of them at $99 a pop).

More than you could ever want to know here:

http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37053

Oh, and without Pro, you'll miss the bundled programs and many of the included virtual instruments (as well as those mentioned by Justin).  That said, notation and midi don't appear to be any different between them.

[quote author=drumcat link=topic=2032.msg10308#msg10308 date=1192141973]
That's an awesome writeup.  I'm looking forward to Cubase provided their 4.1 is at least decent.  I expect that I'll see a lot of the same conditions.  It's really good to know that Logic is capable of all of that, especially knowing that IMO Sibelius and Finale have both drastically dropped the ball.  Again, IMO, all any sequencer has to do is add decent notation, whereas a notation program has to offer all sorts of digital audio.  Wishing the audio stuff wasn't that important is a serious flaw in their collective thinking.

Bravo on the jump.
[/quote]

I'd be on the lookout for more Sibelius integration with Pro Tools in the near future.  Avid bought Sibelius (Avid also owns Digidesign) earlier in the year, and Pro Tools has been slowly adding more and more export to Sibelius features in each 7x release.

It wouldn't surprise me that you would be able to run both programs in an integrated environment by next year or so.

[quote author=TylerDurden link=topic=2032.msg10337#msg10337 date=1192255830]
I'd be on the lookout for more Sibelius integration with Pro Tools in the near future.  Avid bought Sibelius (Avid also owns Digidesign) earlier in the year, and Pro Tools has been slowly adding more and more export to Sibelius features in each 7x release.
[/quote]


Man... every year I feel more and more like I got on the wrong horse a long time ago.  Ugh.

:-)


-Dedicated Finale user since 1998...

At least it's easy to get away from Finale...  Everything else is very easy to learn.

I must be the odd man out. Finale was a piece of cake for me to learn. I took a 1 week summer workshop for Finale, bought it about 6 months later and went right to work. Sibelius is a different animal. I just can't get my mind around the app. Same thing with Logic vs. Digital Performer. I worked with a sequencing program called Musicshop for about a year and a half, switched to DP and went right to work. A couple of years ago I took a Berklee online course that used Logic5 and it took me most of the course to really get comfortable with the layout.

Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if Avid/ProTools didn't intergrate Sibelius and then drop support for it.


Ted Boliske